Conversation Jonathan Mary

Jonathan: so I'm Jonathan and, uh, I'm from Costa Rica and, uh, well I'm currently working at Ministerio de Educacion Publica in a primary school. I also work at Universidad Estatal a Distancia as a tutor there for the English teaching major. And, uh, well, I'm also an international examiner for Cambridge IELTS. so that's, that's pretty much my life.

Mary: the basic idea is that there's sort of two big phases. One phase is really just understanding your story, your situation, your challenge is understanding it, and in that part, I'm just going to be listening and asking questions and sort of showing empathy, reflecting back, that kind of stuff. And then the second phase is once you feel like you've said your story and your situation and you feel like I've got it, then we start to explore it a little bit together and see where that moves into. So that's sort of the process. How does that sound?

Jonathan: Good. Good. I, I w I was just thinking when you mentioned the word challenge, do you mean professional, educational, personal.

Mary: It's up to you really, because I mean, they're sort of blended together.. But what's really most important is what's, what's big for you.

[00:01:42] Jonathan: [00:01:42] Great

Mary: cause that who, you know, we have that saying, we teach who we are. So whatever it is, it's affecting who I am and how I'm being. That's also whats important

Jonathan: what I was thinking like, uh, when, when, when you told me it can be about any challenge, um, actually I think my biggest challenge right now, or it's, um, I mean, I feel at some points I feel I'm getting to like a high peaking my professional life.

Where I start getting a lot of opportunities, a lot of, uh, I mean, a lot of different things. I mean, I think I've been, um. I've, I've been like, kind of farming and now it's, it's a, it's a time to harvest, right. What I have been doing throughout my professional in academic life, and I'm, I'm finding it very difficult to cope with everything and to, to keep a balance.

Um, I. I dunno, I, we, we say here in Costa Rica that I'm a little bombeta, right? Like, I, I, I do a lot of everything and I like to help people a lot. I think that's, that's one of the biggest issues. Like I feel if I can help somebody, um, I gotta do it. And so I find myself not saying no to people. Um, lik Anywhere. I, I dunno, the, the national advisors call me and they say, Hey, we have this project and we really want you in, uh, we were thinking about you. And I say, yes, come in. What do I have to do? And, and add a little checkbox rail. Like, that's one more to do right in the list. And, uh, the regional advisor calls me and says, I have this project.

[00:04:14] I really am thinking about helping teachers this way, and will you be willing to do that? And my boss at the school says, uh, we have this project and now that we're teaching distance teachers have the need to be trained and I know you have experience with some tools, would you be willing to help me? And on top of that, I need to continue teaching my students and now it's distance learning and I have to continue with the UNED

[00:04:38] And so I have. So many things in my plate that sometimes I don't know where to start. I don't know. Uh, I don't know which or how to, to balance them because all of them seem very important to me. Like, I mean, I, I started thinking, well, I have to check these things from UNED I have to do this for the national advisory.

[00:04:58] I have to continue with my PhD. I have to continue with my studies. I have this other course I'm taking in. Everything seems so important. Everything seems to, to meet to be done as soon as possible. Right.

[00:05:09] Mary: It's overwhelming because everything is number one.

[00:05:13] Jonathan: Exactly, exactly. And I, I mean, at some point, um, I think after March 16th I felt I was going to have enough time to do everything because I'm not going to school.

[00:05:28] And at some point I started like waking up late or a little later, kind of like 8:30 or 9 ish. Uh, but then I started having sleep problems. Uh, I don't know why it was probably because I didn't have a lot to do, so I was, I was just thinking, Oh, I'm, I'm able to stay up late and watch Netflix or whatever. And then the following day I can wake up late.

[00:05:50] Um. But then I decided to kind of go back to my normal role, and I've been finding myself, I'm waking up at around six in the morning and then I finish my work at around 10 or 11 and I don't finish. I mean, I, I do a lot of things and every day.

Mary: at night?

Yes, exactly. At night. And I just take time to rest a little bit at noon, have lunch, and then coffee, talk, coffee time.

[00:06:19] Um, I have some time, probably an hour or so, um, at night for my, uh, dinner. But it's getting very difficult and yes, it's like how do I balance? How do I choose what to do, what not to do? Mostly when I kind of foresee everything that I'm doing right now and I, I see an opportunity for me as well. It's not only helping you or helping another person helping a teacher, but it's also an opportunity for me to learn to grow. Uh, to expand my horizons academically and professionally. So it's very complicated.

[00:06:52] Mary: So the things that you're choosing to do are all things that you really do value. How do I choose whats most important? And maybe this is like that kind of opportunity of saying, wow, how do I, how do I set my priorities? How do I choose what's most important?

[00:08:19] Jonathan: [00:08:19] And I don't know. I, I, I like reading a lot and lately I've been trying to read books because I, I was a lot into novels and fiction but lately I've been trying to write books that might actually help me, I don't know about finance or personal finances and about emotions and more like personal growth.

And, uh. Every time I read books about like saying no to people, for example, I just, I just can't find a way to say no. Like it's very complicated. I mean, it's mostly because I also think like, yes, there's something I can do and I feel. I dunno, I feel kind of, I'm, I'm not doing what I could be doing basically. I want to take advantage of every single moment, but then I don't seem to have like that clear. Um, what is that idea of time and, and then I don't, I don't have time to do everything.

[00:09:20] Mary: [Yeah. So there's something about saying no, that's challenging. And it also sounds like there's something about um…finding so many things in enriching .

[00:09:32] Jonathan: [00:09:32] Yeah, because that's, that's another, another point, like enriching. Um, if I sit here for 20 or 30 minutes with you, I find that very enriching. Uh, if I, uh, if I get to help the people at the national advisory and they tell me we have these, these activity, I find it not only as an opportunity for me, uh.

[00:09:54] To be out there and maybe be fiend by other people and kind of be set, set an example, but it's also a reaching is something I really like to do. I feel like the reward that I feel when I get to train teachers, for example, when I get to see that feature, say I learned something today. That's amazing because I've been investing so much in learning myself that I would really like to give back to other people.

[00:10:21] Um, and if I think about, Oh, I'm going to take this course, this online course, now that I'm at home and I have a little more time, uh, then I find that enriching because it's like I'm learning about something else. I'm learning about something I didn't know. And that is also rich. And so I think that's, that's the key word.

[00:10:39] Like, how do I, or, or ha. How may I, uh, find things or, or kind of decide like, no, this is not enriching or this might be enriching, but I cannot do it right now. And, and then I started thinking, what if later I don't get the same opportunity? Like these great courses I see [00:11:00] today online, and they're saying like, registration is open until whatever date.

[00:11:04] And right now we have a. For free because it's a, because of the common 19 situation. And then am I going to find that opportunity again later? Am I going to find that same quarter? Is the the the one that interested me a lot? Right.

[00:11:18] Mary: [00:11:18] So is there, there's a little bit of a, the FOMO, the fear of missing out?

[00:11:22] Jonathan: [00:11:22] Yes. I think, I think that is, that is one of the problems.

[00:11:30] So I don't, I don't know. What do you think? What, what have you done, uh, when you, because I'm pretty sure that you have been in that same situation. You're always going here and there, and then I see your Costa Rica one day, and the next day you're in Dominica Republic. The following day you're in New York, and we never know where Mary shawl is.

[00:11:50] Right? Uh, so how do you manage, uh, like that much? . Steal half halftime because I, I feel, [00:12:00] um, that you still have time for your personal life, for friends and to get time to be at home and be with your dogs and in your farm. So how do you manage to do all of that?

[00:12:13] Mary: That is a great question. And I mean, right now, thanks to coven, I get to stay home and I hear, you know, you're noticing that you're, you've, you can see some things about my life. Then are sort of the public things that you're seeing. So Mary's out going different places or working with different people. And also there's some personal stuff coming up too, so you can see that there's some space for that. Mmm. And yeah, I've.

[00:12:45] I, I feel, I, I've, I've been in place, I've, I've, I've, okay. So I'm struggling right now because I feel like I shouldn't be telling you about me because I'm supposed to be asking you questions about you, but I also believe you, but, you know, it's a genuine question and it's really, I think it's important to answer these things for me.

[00:13:03] Um, I, the same advice. I try to follow the advice I give other people. Which I don't always follow. So, you know, that's why I say it in that way. I guess one of the things I often tell people is that, you know, we have a certain amount of energy, and so I really have to be careful with my energy and decide.

[00:13:28] If what I'm doing is bringing life and good energy or if it's spinning wheels and kind of sucking my energy out. And so one of those decisions, I mean, why those decisions is, you know, am I, um, is whatever it is that I'm doing or what it is I'm thinking. Cause sometimes my, my time gets caught up more in sort of thinking patterns.

[00:13:51] Um, how is that. Contributing to my or somebody else's wellbeing. Um, I also try to prioritize, [00:14:00] prioritize some self care. Right now I'm just trying to prioritize sleep cause I feel like that was really important for health. Um,

[00:14:13] and then I think the question too about that, um. How do you, how do I say no? Can I say, when I'm saying no to something, it means I'm saying yes to something else.

[00:14:28] So, um, you know, is there a way that I can understand why I'm saying yes to something else?

[00:14:45] Yeah. I, and I also, I think I do some checking in with, with friends in ways that really. Helps me just be me, like remember me. It's like, it's actually like that. Remembering of like, what is it that helps me remember to try and be the person I'm trying to be or to be who I am authentically. And that's a, that's a, that's like friendship time for me or meaningful conversations. So what did you get out of some of the things that I said?

[00:15:21] Jonathan: [00:15:21] Well. Yes. I think, um, it's very interesting when you talk about energy and things that you do that bring you energy. And I think that might be one of the. Of the answers to my questions because I've had many people told me like, I don't know where you get the energy from.

[00:15:45] People usually ask me, my, my closest friends and colleagues that see me going and coming every single day and doing this. So many stuff. They usually tell me like, but when do you sleep? Like, do you get sleep at night? And I tell him, yes, I get seven hours of good sleep every night, at least. Of course, not every single day. There might be some days that I get sleep per. So, but as I tell you, if I finish working at 10 and then I wake up at six, I'm getting six or seven, eight hours of good sleep. And, uh. I feel energized. I feel, uh, sometimes I think it's, it's a matter of prioritizing. Like what? Because everything seems so important.

[00:16:33] And so every day I'm doing things that I need to hand in yesterday and, uh, like every day seems to be in a rush because of that. I think it's the emotional load of feeling like I feel in pressured. But then I also find myself at, sometimes when I have free time, I kind of don't see those things that I say, Oh, this report I have to do.

[00:17:00] Handed in the day after tomorrow's, I think I can do it tomorrow and today I can get some time to read a book or to do something else. Um, and then, uh, tomorrow I find myself regretting like, Oh, I should have done this yesterday. And then maybe today I would have had more time to do whatever, or the stress or the pressure.

[00:17:20] So, uh, when I talk to people. Sometimes I find out that like many people do exactly the same, like we are always doing things that are very urgent, and then we try to lift things that are not urgent for later, but then later that becomes urgent as well. Right.

[00:17:40] Mary: [So in a sense, you're generating urgency around things that are exciting or urgent?. How is it for you to realize that and think about that?

[00:17:53] Jonathan: [00:17:53] Ooh, it's complicated because, um, I mean, I've tried so [00:18:00] many different strategies, the late, the latest strategy that I'm implemented this year, and I find that kind of relaxing and, and kind of that helps me sleep better at night.

[00:18:09] It's a bullet journaling I found about that last night. A year. And I started like reading and getting a lot of information about it. So I decided to buy my bullet journal and begin bullet journaling. So like at the end of every month, I get some spare time to sit down and create these beautiful, uh, like calendar for the next month and everything.

[00:18:31] But then during the month, I feel I have organized myself a little bit more because, uh. Like in the past, I used to have a lot of, um, like I used to forget, like, I mean, I forget everything, like always, I forget things. So, uh, I, I usually find myself with a lot of information in my digital calendar. And then, uh, I just forget and people tell me like, remember that report for tomorrow?

[00:18:57] I have forgotten about that. And I think it's, again, going back to, I have to. So many things in my plate that I cannot grow everything other thing time. But these bullet journaling thing has actually helped me organize a little better in a sense that before going to sleep, I sit down and I think about, okay, what is it that I have to do tomorrow?

[00:19:17] Write a couple of ideas and then I, I don't go to S I don't go to bed thinking about tomorrow because everything is kind of planned in a certain way. And in the past that was a problem. I think. I found myself sleeping about like dreaming about my things and, and waking up at night and saying, okay, I need to remember this to do this tomorrow.

[00:19:39] And that has helped me in a way. Uh, but still, uh, the, the question remains there, like, what should be a priority and to what point should I say this is enough?

[00:19:56] Mary: [00:19:56] So your question, your deep question is really how to prioritize and how to really know when to say no. Is that it?

[00:20:08] Jonathan: [00:20:08] I think, I think that's, that's part of it. Um, because let's see, the thing is that I. I mean, I, I think I consider myself a little ambitious sometimes in the good sense. Like, I really, I really want to do so many things. Um, I don't know. When I, when I think about what do I want to be remembered.

[00:20:34] For, um, I would like people to, like I always tell my mom, I would like to, the day I die, I really would like to have written a book, uh, because I think that's one of the things thing which I can contribute to society. What everything I write there remains. Right. Uh, but also. I have all these ideas that [00:21:00] of the person I want to become professionally in the future.

[00:21:04] And, and I'm, I think I'm going there. As I told you, I'm, I'm, I'm going there to the peak of the mountain and then I started thinking like, if I do this today, will this help me get there tomorrow? And then I find myself saying yes. Like you have to do this. Exactly. Yes, you'll have to do this. Uh, I mean, you have to probably enroll in this major in finish this major because that will help you in terms of, uh, I mean, your resume for example, or you have to be doing this today because that will help more people to get to know you in what you are doing.

[00:21:46] So in the future, those people can actually. Come back to you and say, Hey, I saw you here. I saw you there. I would really like you to come and help me or help this group of features. And I don't, I don't think I do that. Uh, because I, that was a conversation I also have with a very good friend, and she was telling me, but you're not getting any money for that or whatever.

I don't think I'm doing that for the money. Uh, I mean, money is important, but right now in my life, I, um. I'm doing good in terms of money because I have my salary for may, I have a good, like steady salary and income from, from my jobs. And so what I do, I don't actually do for, for the money. I mean, I'm, I'm not gonna start saying like, I'm going to charge or at least teachers for that if it's like, I really want to be able in the future if I decide, okay, I, I get to a position in which I can train teachers, for example, they can actually, uh.

[00:22:43] Know who I am and say, Oh, I know this person. Like, and he's doing this right now, and we can actually call him right

[00:22:52] Mary: [00:22:52] Jonathan I want to back up for a second. And I just want to kind of sink into a point where you said you realize everything that you're doing is a value. And everything that you're doing when you're thinking about your decisions, they are taking you to this place in the future that like they're valuable in the moment, is what I hear. And you also see this future value for each of each of these choices that you're making. So what does that tell you? If all the choices that making are of value?

[00:23:32] Jonathan: Well, I think that kinds of tells me that. Okay. But those might be right choices because they're, I mean, their value, they're bringing me energy. They're bringing me good things. Um. In every sense, like, I mean, new friendships, new professional networks, uh, new experiences. And so that might be like, maybe I'm doing the right choices.

[00:24:03] Uh, what I, what I might need to learn to do is kind of establish priorities and, and kind of set a time or find a way in which I can set times for everything. Because I think that's, that's another issue I, I find myself sometime. Like maybe during the week I'm doing a lot of everything, including a lot of free time to read books, for example, and then I have to work on Saturdays and Sundays.

[00:24:33] So maybe kind of going back to my schedules and saying, no, I'm not going to like read books or watch TV theory is during the week because I really want my, my weekends to rest. Maybe I can do that on the weekends. And then. No, not enjoying that during the week. So when I get to enjoy it, I really get to enjoy that time.

[00:24:56] Maybe.

[00:24:58] Mary: [00:24:58] How does that sound to you? How does that option sound to you?

[00:25:01] Jonathan: [00:25:01] I think that's a, that's, that's a very good option. But then, um, I don't know. It's, it's sometimes quite difficult, right? To

[00:25:12] Mary: What are the things that seem to make it difficult. Like when it's difficult to do all the work during the week and really keep your weekends sacred for you?

[00:25:24] Jonathan: [00:25:24] Well, I think one of the things is that we're, well, I'm going to talk about myself. I'm very sociable. Um, and so I find myself, I'm working and suddenly I get distracted because I got a, a WhatsApp message from someone. And that was a message seem to be very important. And then I find out like, Oh, I'm going to call this person right now because they thing this conversation is very interesting.

[00:25:54] So I call that person. And then I realized I spent an hour. That call was very important. [00:26:00] At the moment, but then maybe the was the, was it more than important? Was it urgent? Was it necessary? Or not, or I don't know, thinks he's that. Now we're, we're so connected everywhere that I, I get to the computer and I have my WhatsApp in the computer.

[00:26:22] I have my social networks in the computer. I have everything. So if I leave the, the, this little device of the cell phones. Somewhere still, I have everything I have in the cell phone I have in the computer. So it's not a, as we used to do in the past, like I leave my cell phone there, I'm not going to answer that.

[00:26:38] I'm going to listen to that. And then I get to the computer and I get to work because I don't have any distractions. And I, I think, uh, when I talked to my mom about my childhood, I think I'm a little, uh, I have a little. Attention deficit disorder. Like I get very distraught, like easily distracted. I'm [00:27:00] doing something.

[00:27:00] And then suddenly I'm like, Oh, look at this beautiful drawing here. And I just started thinking about that and I forget what I'm doing. Right.

[00:27:09] Mary: So I have two questions for you. So what do you get out of those distractions? What's that? How does that, how do they serve you? What need of yours are you getting met by following a distraction?

[00:27:24] Jonathan: [00:27:24] I think sometimes it's, um, I think sometimes is that I feel kind of tired at the moment. Maybe.

[00:27:37] Mary: So it's a relaxation technique?

[00:27:39] Jonathan: [00:27:39] probably. Yes. . Um, sometimes it's just a, I dunno, maybe I'm writing something. Um, like one of these days, if I think about a one of these days, I was, uh, we're doing this research at the university and so I was [00:28:00] trying to.

[00:28:01] Come out with some instruments for the research, and I found it very difficult, like I was, I was trying to focus, I was trying to think about it, and then I was not getting any ideas. And suddenly I decided just to. Give up and do something else that I found here. Um, I don't remember what exactly it was, but then later I was like, Oh, it was one hour, and maybe I could have finished that in these hours, but probably that was an avoidance technique as well.

[00:28:32] Like, I don't want to avoid or I want to avoid. Yeah. This feeling, this frustration I'm feeling right now. Okay. Being here, sitting down and writing a question and deleting it and writing another idea and deleting it and going back and forward and probably that, that's also an avoidance technique sometimes, right?

[00:28:53] Like procrastination, let's say. Sure, sure.

[00:28:58] Mary: Yeah. It's hard. I mean, you're the one who knows how it's serving you. You know, or how it's not serving you. And that's the question of like, can you listen to your inside and say, Oh, is it serving me in this way, but it's not serving me in that way. Then you give yourself a chance to sort of take a step back and pause, think, what am I really doing? What do I want to do? Um, but you, that's what you know for yourself. That's not something like that outside. I think anybody can say, say to you about. Sorry,

[00:29:33] Jonathan: now that you've put it that way, I think a, a problem is that many times, um, I, I don't know. I don't know if it's a problem with the educational system, with culture, with whatever, uh, that has shaped me. And I don't know if that happens to other people as well, but I feel many times I find myself trying to find answers. In the outside, like asking someone, reading a book, listening to someone, and now that you put it that way, maybe I haven't been trained to listen to myself. Like how do I explore these things that I'm feeling and this, because now that I'm talking about that, I'm talking to you and with these questions, it's very interesting to see. How you make me thinks of you. You make me think of myself, right? And what I think, what I feel, what, what serves me, what is important to me and everything it's coming like from the inside, enough from the outside. But I think I haven't had that training to actually, uh, kind of look at, uh, things in an introspective way.

[00:30:52] And not from the outside. Right.

[00:30:55] Mary: What do you think you would need in order to get that training? To find that skill for yourself?

[00:30:58] Jonathan: [00:30:58] yourself? [00:31:00] I dunno. I think, uh, Oh. I think when you, when you used to the expression meaningful conversations. Uh, but again, it has to do with conversations with people that actually know a lot about like, compassionate communication and empathy.

[00:31:23] And because I think that's one of the areas of expertise that you have, right? Uh, every time I've been at central scotoma now we talk a lot about compassionate communication and nonviolent communication in an empathy. And you always, you have always told us this is something that, that you need a lot of training.

[00:31:46] Uh, just listening, not judgmental, but listening and asking. Um. Like asking questions that are authentic and that actually helped the other person kind of [00:32:00] listen. Because right now I feel you're not judging me. You're not telling me, Oh no, what you're doing is wrong. What you're doing is right, or this or that.

[00:32:07] But you're more listening to me, uh, in, in, in helping me kind of express myself. And I don't know. Because I've, I've tried in the past kind of, uh, writing a lot, but then I feel I don't have the training to how do I express everything I feel in writing without feeling like I'm, I'm writing like, dear diary today, there's this and that.

[00:32:33] Right. Like that, that thing,

[00:32:35] Mary: your authentic voice. Right,

[00:32:36] Jonathan: [00:32:36] exactly. And I think that's a lot, that has a lot to do with culture because I feel in other cultures, like I have. So many American friends who seem to to have that cultural writing and expressing their feelings, their ideas or thoughts in a very easy way.

[00:32:54] But we, uh, Latinos maybe are not that into journaling, [00:33:00] into writing, expressing in a, in a written way. I always tell my students. Um, I, I find it very interesting how you're used to writing thank you notes, for example, uh, in those little things or cards for Christmas. And we are, we don't like, probably not, not general, I think, but many of us.

[00:33:22] Don't do that culturally sticky. So I think it's, it's a matter also of a meaningful communication or meaningful conversations and also a matter of kind of somehow being trained to be able to do that. Like what kind of questions should I ask myself? Because I might sit down here and try to find answers to certain questions, but how do I ask myself those questions that you're asking me right now?

[00:33:50] Where, where can I get those questions from? That's, that's, that's the question, right?

[00:33:56] Mary: That's a great question. Well, first of all, I'm also, I appreciate you've noticed exactly what I'm actually doing with you, and this is the actually the skill that we're, the skills of listening and empathy and these kinds of questions that help us explore.

[00:34:10] Without leading you to any particular answer, they're just genuine, authentic questions to think about the situation from different angles. So you, you, you nailed it. You got the metacognitive part!

[00:34:25] Jonathan: [00:34:25] I think probably I did it because I have been, uh, receiving certain training to that as well. Like, as I tell you, I've been with you in the past talking about all of these, uh, uh, no nonviolent communication and, and all of these techniques that we, I feel I have just gotten a glimpse at it.

[00:34:47] Right. But, uh, probably that's the thing. I, I've been, I've received some initial training into that and that's, that's why I can kind of spot that right. Yeah.

[00:34:58] Mary: Yeah. Yeah And I think that whole question of also how can I do it for myself is a great question. Um, I also know, like for me personally, it's really helpful to have someone else asking me so I can just focus on how I'm thinking and not have to plan my thinking. If that makes any sense. So like I'm sort of planning in this conversation, it's you are the focus and um, you are doing the exploring and I'm sort of planning, uh, and not necessarily planning ahead, but I'm thinking about, Oh, what am I curious about? What, you know, what one is, do I understand what you're really saying? Do you feel like I've understood you? And then after that, um, how can we play with what's going on and look at it from different angles? And sometimes it's hard for me to do for myself, to be honest with you. Although, um, that being said there, I also think that there are, there are some contemplative traditions that lend themselves. So there's ways of. Learning to focus attention and learning to focus, questing, questioning that, that lend themselves to more to more exploration. Self exploration.

Yeah. It's interesting.

What do you, so we've been talking for about 45 minutes now. What do you feel like, and that's not long or short, that just is like, Oh, we've been talking for a while and it seems like we've done a, we did a little bit of thinking about both what you're doing that helps and what you're doing, that it's helping you and sort of other things that may might do that would help you. And also now you're thinking even a little bit about sort of your own thought process and how that might. Serve you.

Um, so I'm just kinda curious for you, what, what are you getting out of this so far or at this point in time?

[00:36:58] Jonathan: I think, well, the time flies because I hadn't noticed that we've been talking for about 45 minutes.

[00:37:05] Um, but I think it's, um, I dunno, it's, it's very interesting to see that there are. Many things that you usually don't notice, uh, that my, that you might feel worried about. And maybe they are not that bad as you thought they were. Um, but you need to sometimes stop and think about it. And because I mean, when, when, when you posted the question that you posted, the question, uh, someone that can have a conversation with me that is going through a challenge. The first thing that came to my mind was something related to education and the situation we're going through. But then as we started talking and I said, well, that's, that's a good opportunity also to, to talk about something personal.

[00:38:00] Right? Um, so it's. I think it's important to also get time to stop and think about me, like what's important at this point? Why am I doing what I am doing? Because that might also be a. Uh, kind of a good question, right? To ask, like, this week I have gone this and this and that. Why did I do that? Uh, was there a very relevant recent or was there non that relevant reason?

[00:38:35] So maybe in the future I might find out like, Oh no, those kinds of things. I, I think I can say no, or I think I can say like, maybe I can help you with that. Next week or in the future, but right now I'm focused on certain other things that are more important, maybe. Right.

[00:38:55] Mary: [00:38:55] Yeah. That's a beautiful lesson. Stopping, pausing, checking in.

[00:39:01] Jonathan: [00:39:01] Yes.

[00:39:03] Mary: [00:39:03] That's really important. It's really important. And then, and then also like when you were mentioning relevant reason, it's like, that's also, it's like, and what kind of relevancy, because you know, you mentioned the distractions might be relaxing, which might be very relevant to the moment. But part of my judging brain was like, I shouldn't be doing this. I should be focused on this, my wall. But I feel relaxed now and I needed some relaxation so that I could let my brain shake up a little bit, and then I can go back and think about, you know, turn on my other thinking brain.

[00:39:38] Jonathan: Yeah. But, but it's, it's very interesting because even like those relaxation periods, maybe if I'm aware like, why am I doing this right now? It's because I need to. Relieve some stress, but then how much is good? Because then if I spend two hours doing this for relaxation, what happens with the other things? So maybe I, I'm, I'm kind of, uh. Over relaxing at that moment, right?

[00:40:07] Mary: Or is that the technique you want to use for relaxing? There might be other choices that you want to, you know, also once you become aware of your need that, Oh, I need to relax for awhile. Then you have a w that opens up a pause where you can choose, what am I going to do to help get this myself, get this needs met? a little bit more sense of agency and less feeling I, my guess would be like less feeling of like a little bit out of control cause there are so many things to do.

Jonathan: Right.

[00:40:46] Jonathan: Well it was a deep conversation.

[00:40:48] Mary: Yeah. it was a deep conversation. How are you feeling? I think we're going to, we're kind of coming to the last stage of the conversation for you.

[00:40:58] Jonathan: [00:40:58] Well, I, I, I [00:41:00] feel, um, I feel good. I feel, I don't know, I feel what, what might be the word maybe empowered. And uh, inspired as well. Like, like, Oh, all these things that I might be doing that are actually like little changes and little things that might actually help me a lot, right. To, um, to find answers to certain questions that I might have in the future in that I have right now. Maybe.

[00:41:37] Mary: [00:41:37] That's beautiful. That's beautiful. one of the things that I got out of really just trying to listen and empathize with you was, I think I'm kind of taking the same advice for myself and that is also inspiring and energizing and, um, um. And so I appreciate that. And I also feel like it'd be fun to check in on how we're doing.

[00:43:34] Jonathan: [00:43:34] Thank you very much. Thank you for the opportunity as well, because I mean, that was great. That was very, very good. Yes. Thank

[00:43:43] Mary: [00:43:43] you. Thank you.